Posts by Sea Breeze

28

Do you pray?

by Fisherman in

i’ve always had a personal relationship with god that is not affected by any issues or controversies i have with anybody..

Sea Breeze

I’ve always had a personal relationship with God

@Fisherman - scripture says that "if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his".

Have you been born again with a new spirit?

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

Unlike Joseph Smith, Mary Eddy Baker, and other false teachers, Russell did not rely on visions or other extra-biblical revelation. Rather, he simply misinterpreted the Bible and was an accomplished liar when characterizing other Christians like in his world ~~tour~~ vacation to "investigate" missionaries.

He set the framework and tone for people like Rutherford, who just followed in his footsteps.

While claiming to be a Christian who was restoring the faith of the New Testament, he denied many key Christian doctrines including the tri-partite nature of man, the triune nature of God, the existence of the Holy Spirit, Russell held that the soul simply ceases to exist after death.

As with Arius centuries before, he held that Jesus was a created being, and was actually Michael the Archangel in disguise. He taught that Jesus rose only spiritually rather than physically. He denied the divinity of Jesus.

These flip flops about Jesus as Mediator are documented by JW Facts:

Russell appears to have been thoroughly confused about the role of mediator. At times he felt that the 144,000 were not under the new covenant, at other times that they were under the New Covenant. When he taught that they were not under the New Covenant it followed that they did not need a mediator and that they (along with Jesus) played role of mediator for mankind.

Up to 1880 Russell taught that Jesus and the body of Christ (the 144,000) mediated for mankind, so the 144,000 were not included in the New Covenant.

"It should be remembered that we are in him heirs of glory, not under the new covenant, which is still future, but in the Abrahamic covenant." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Feb p.72

Russell changed his mind and from 1881 to 1907 said the Church is included in the New Covenant

"In a sense, the operation of the new covenant begins with the Gospel church and lifts us from the plane of degradation and sin-to a justified or reckoned perfect condition, from which we can go forward in the narrow way, becoming heirs of the first covenant." Zion's Watch Tower 1881 Sep p.151

In 1907, Russell re-introduced his teaching that the new covenant is not made with the church at all.

"It was very inconsistent for us to quote in one breath the Apostle's statement that we are members of the Isaac Seed, the children of the old, original Covenant, and then in the next breath to class ourselves as beneficiaries of the New Covenant." Zion's Watch Tower 1909 Jan 1 p.12 (See also Zion's Watch Tower 1909 Apr 1 p.110)

------ end quote -----

The significance of these heresies cannot be overstated. They directly affect a persons' salvation.

1. Scriptures says if we deny Jesus' bodily resurrection, then we have no hope.

2. If Jesus was really Michael the Archangel, then somebody has false faith in the wrong Jesus.

3. If Jesus isn't our Mediator, then we cannot be Justified (declared righteous)

I always wondered where the outcry and pushback was from the Christian community when Russell started publishing his heresies. Scriptures are clear like in Gal. 1: 8-9 that if anyone preaches a different gospel than what the apostles preached, that they are double cursed in the bible.

A lot of exjws don't know that the elder/pastor/deacon requirement of being "a husband of one wife" is taken quite literally and quite seriously, even today, by many churches. You simply cannot hold one of those offices if you have been married more than once. So, the divorce was just another point on which to inform the public.

Early Christian leaders were discipled directly by the apostles. Then, early schools were set up in Antioch and Alexandria to make sure the faith was not perverted as it passed from one person to another. Usually Christian leaders studied under someone or some institution that could vouch for their orthodoxy. But Russel just popped up and announced that everyone except for himself was a fraud and that people had no hope unless they listened to him.

Rutherford, other WT presidents, and all JW's today preach the EXACT SAME THING just as Russell taught.

Russell, Rutherford and the WT organization as a whole perfectly fit the description of a false Christ (Savior).

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

He alleged that Russell was involved in questionable business practices, had defrauded his estranged wife, and denounced his qualifications, legitimacy and moral example as a Pastor.

Yes, he sounded the alarm, as did others. We are lucky that Russell was made to testify for two hours. Now, his lies are confirmed and irrefutable, a matter of record.

Anyone claiming to be a type of Christ is a threat to everyone he meets. If we don't warn others about that.... what should we ever warn our neighbors about? Six generations of my family have been horribly damaged by this man. It is nice to have his words on record, and I APPLAUD the men who took the time to expose him on his lies and try and warn people.

Russell just out-printed his adversaries.... but not before being exposed and getting it on record.

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

There is sufficient evidence to show that he was a con-man (selling things like Miracle Wheat) and he had serious issues with the ladies resulting in his marriage and he liked to undercut and cheat his business associates out of money every turn he could.

Exactly, which is why I can't understand SBF's caricature of Russel as a spreader of "peace and hope" . Positioning yourself as appointed over all the things of God ie. "belongings", (God's mouthpiece) is not spreading peace and hope. Well, I guess you could say he was spreading a message of peace and hope about himself.

Jesus said many will come in my name and deceive many. It is quite curios how Russell's caricature of a kindly 'old grandfather type could have endured all these decades, even among exjws. My own mother told me once: "I have been told he was a very dignified man".

Bottom line is : He was a sixth grader (educationally) in an adult body that knew how to act dignified, self-important, humble & dare I say "holy". He was a very BIG Liar... which is common in some televangelism today; but he was one of the original pioneers.

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

I found this exchange while under oath on pages 16-19 very revealing as to Russell's character:

But now what are the facts as they were brought out by the examination on March 17th, 1913? As to his scholastic standing, he had sworn that what was said about it was not true. Under the examination, he admitted that, at most, he had attended school only seven years of his life, that of the public school, and that he had left school when he was about fourteen years of age.....

"Do you know the Greek"? Asked the Attorney. "Oh, yes," was Russell's reply. Here he was handed a copy of the New Testament in Greek, by Westcott & Hort, and asked to read the letters of the alphabet as they appear on the top of page 447. He did not know the alphabet. "Now," asked Mr. Staunton, "Are you familiar with the Greek language?" "No," said Mr. Russell, without a blush.

When he saw that he was caught, then he admitted that he knew nothing about Latin, and Hebrew and neither had he ever taken a course in Philosophy, Systematic Theology and neither had he ever attended any of the higher schools of learning. A trap had been set for him at every one of these points, and having been caught in the first, he thought it best for him to "own up before he was shown up." As it was, he was shown up.

This is the man who goes about claiming that he alone has the proper understanding of the Scriptures, condemning the translators of the Bible and denouncing all ministers and teachers of the Word except himself... as ignorant, empty-headed and deceitful. Russell has made quite a free use of the dead languages in his books, but this is evidently not done by himself, but another, with the end in view of misleading the ignorant, and trying to catch the educated. He has familiarized himself with a few big Greek terms which have become Anglicized, such as "Apocalypsis, Epiphaneia, parousia, parak- letos," etc., puts his own meaning into them and then goes about using them before his audiences, and those who do not know any better think him a highly-educated man. This is the man also who condemns all books and papers except those written by himself or published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

Now as to his ordination. Remember that the self- styled "Pastor" is still under oath and that he says, "The oath is sacred." It is indeed sacred to him. "Is it true that you were never ordained?" asked his counsel. "It is not true," replied Mr. Russell, But my counsel takes him in hand and being wileful, it is difficult to keep the arch-heretic to the point. His Worship, the Magistrate, was appealed to and Russell is informed that he must answer yes or no.

"Now," said Mr. Staunton, "You never were ordained by a bishop, clergyman. Presbytery, council, or any body of men living." After a considerable pause and his eyes fixed on his feet in the witness box, he said, "I never was." He was caught again! and he was not abashed.

This is the gentleman that gives himself forth all over the world as a fully accredited minister of the gospel. What a low standard of morals he must have! What a seared conscience he must possess. He swore he would tell the truth, all the truth and nothing but the truth, and that under the eyes of Almighty God. But how artful he is even under oath in devising falsely! In other words, what a fabricator.

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

SBF writes:

He spent his time and energy spreading a message of peace and hope for humanity from the Bible as he understood it

That's just it, he didn't have any understanding because he had no training and just started calling himself a "Pastor" without having been given that name by anyone.

For instance:

The bible says that "money is the answer for everything" . Sound doctrine doesn't not allow for this teaching because those trained in ministry know that the book of Ecclesiastes is a philosophical book written from a carnal point of view.... the one we are not supposed to have as a total worldview. It says that it's material from a point of view "under the sun" dozens of times so that the reader won't get the wrong idea.

Yet, Russel picked out a verse in that book that says :

the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

This verse is talking about the carnal life of man, under the sun, in this world...ie. a man's body. Then, he takes this ignorant exegesis and forms a Christian doctrine out of it while ignoring perhaps a dozen or more NT scriptures that say the opposite. Millions of JW's still repeat this non-sense in trying to support the heretical doctrine of annihilation.

SBF - Here's a link to the second booklet (1912 publishing date). Scrolling down on each of the links gives several more works.

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

@SlimBoyFat: Read the booklets on the link provided before you criticize others. The first one was published in 1881. The others listed at the bottom of the link cover the next few decades. There were many who were keeping track of Russell's scams (like miracle wheat) during his career.

Russell sued one of the authors for libel. He tried to avoid defending himself in court. One of the booklets lists some of the questioning and testimony from Russell where he was caught in lie after lie. Many were eager for this stuff to come out in court so he could be exposed. If these transcripts are true, then he is a consummate liar; a defining characteristic of sociopaths.

Excerpt:

The High Court opened on March 1st, 1913, and the case came before the Grand Jury for considera- tion. The only evidence that was in was obtained from "Pastor" Russell himself under cross-examina- tion. After comparing the charges made in the leaf- let with the evidence thus obtained, the jury found absolutely no ground for libel and handed down the ^rdict "no bill." Thus the case was thrown out of court by the evidence furnished by "Pastor" Russell himself.

I don't think you understand the significance of this material. The booklets are nothing short of explosive IMHO.

This was not a good man. The conclusions I draw are appropriate with the material provided in that link. Read the booklets and draw your own conclusions.

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

slimboyfat :

“Sounds to me like you’ve carefully crafted your own story about Charles Russell there”

No it doesn’t. This is what his contemporaries mostly said in the link I provided.

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Sea Breeze

I was thinking a bit about this the other day. CT Russell, from what I remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.

I know this is a common and carefully crafted view about Russell. The facts show otherwise. The book below:

https://archive.org/details/allaboutonerusse00cook

was written only 2 years after Russell started printing the WT. It was written by his peers in the New York area.

It shows that he:

1. Had zero bible training what so ever

2. Was a clothing salesman for his father

3. Assumed the title Pastor without ever having pastored anyone.

4. Fostered and promoted the idea that he himself was named in scripture as the faithful and wise servant.

5. Was a shameless self-promoter and had no problem lying on stage

6. Went on a world-tour to investigate missionaries. This was exposed as a complete fraud. He then packed out the Hippodrome in NYC and denounced all missionaries in the most negative terms.

7. Was divorced by his wife (she was known for having impeccable character & from a good family) for "inappropriate behavior".... like locking himself in the maids bedroom and not coming out for 10 minutes when his wife was knocking on the door. She accused him under oath of doing things like this to both of the women who lived in the Russell home.

8. He set up multiple corporations to try and deny her the alimony he was ordered to pay.

Russell filled a niche. He provided a religion to tickle the ears. It was religion for the hard-working albeit uneducated common man:

1. No consciousness after death. So nothing to worry about if you get it wrong in this life.

2. No judgement after you die

3. Second chance theology for almost everyone - wake up in paradise

4. You get to take credit for your hard work you do for God

I believe Russell was the ultimate narcissist sociopath who had no trouble deceiving others.... for their own good of course. Rutherford was just a little angrier.... same BS, same kind of affairs, probably with more alcohol.

ALL of the subsequent WT leaders and many of the R & F have followed in these footsteps that glorify ignorance, the uneducated and self-righteousness.

38

Did you ever meet someone born in the 1800’s?

by Fisherman in

i met freddie franz who was born in the 1880’s and many others from the 1880’s.

but as a very small child i remember someone very old aged 106 and that person was born around 1856 which means that he was around people from the 1700’s..

Sea Breeze

Ernest, Thanks for clearing that up.